Speaker 1: 0:08

Hi and welcome to the Texas Family Lawyer Podcast. My name is Alex Hunt. I'm the managing attorney at Hunt Law Firm, with offices in Katy, Sugar Land, Cypress and League City, and I'm very excited today to be joined by my good friend and colleague, Sarah Cuddy. Sarah is a certified divorce financial analyst and we've worked numerous cases together. She provides an incredible service for us, so welcome, Sarah.

Speaker 2: 0:36

I'm so happy to be here.

Speaker 1: 0:37

Thanks for inviting me, of course, of course. So we're just going to jump right in. Let's talk a little bit today about what a certified divorce financial analyst, or CDFA, is and what you do.

Speaker 2: 0:50

Yeah. So in a nutshell, a CDFA, a certified divorce financial analyst is an expert in the intersection of family law and money. It's very important to make clear to the audience we're not attorneys, we're not trained attorneys. Most of us most of us are financial professionals, but where we fit in the case is helping clients make sense of maybe a more complex estate or helping their attorney and them make some of the really key financial decisions that they're going to be making in a divorce when they're dividing up communities.

Speaker 1: 1:22

Okay and I know we've definitely relied on you for that and we've had some really intricate cases and complicated cases and it's been extraordinarily helpful. So what makes a CDFA distinct? I know that you also have some other initials behind your name, but tell us about CDFA and what makes that special.

Speaker 2: 1:43

So it comes down to some specialized training. So a CDFA is going to have training in essentially three modules, right, they're going to have the financial issues of divorce, they're going to have the tax issues of divorce and then they're going to have the fundamentals of divorce. So they've had these three modules that they've had to study and pass a test on. And then, after they've passed those three module tests, they then need to take kind of what you would think of as a capstone, right, it's a case study-based test that they need to pass. And then there's also ongoing education. So, versus maybe a financial advisor who is a certified financial planner yes, they know a lot about finance, they know a lot about retirement plans, but what they're missing is that special training in divorce law Does that make sense.

Speaker 1: 2:35

It does, so tell me. This is a very niche area of financial planning. What's your background? What got you interested in that?

Speaker 2: 2:43

Yeah, planning. What's your background? What got you interested in that? Yeah, well, when I first decided to pursue the CDFA designation, I was already working with women who were transitioning in that post-divorce phase and a mentor of mine at Baird had said to me you know, you'd be really good at this work. I really think you should pursue the designation. And I thought to myself this makes sense. We all know that when you have a niche you tend to be more successful. And what really prompted me to get charged up about being a certified divorce financial analyst was going through my own divorce. So I remember how confusing and scary and stressful that time was. And that was as someone who was a financial advisor who was very much in control of her own finances.

Speaker 1: 3:32

And I said to myself you know if I'm, if it was this hard for me, how much harder, how much more confusing, how much more stressful must it be for someone who doesn't have the experience and I know that when we first met, you just had received the certified divorce financial analyst credential and then you've since added the certified financial planning credential, and I think it's really important because you know, after the divorce is over, you could potentially stay with clients for the long term. So you're looking at a long term solution. You're looking at what do I need in order to be successful and then also I'm going to stay. You know you're going to stay with them throughout. You know the process, help them invest, help them make proper financial decisions. So you talked a little bit about what it takes to become a CDFA. Tell me a little bit more. Is there ongoing training? What kind of training does that entail?

Speaker 2: 4:27

That's a really good question. So, as with most designations and certifications, you need to have some component of continuing education. So the Institute for Divorce Financial Analysts, which is who issues the CDFA designation, says every two years you need to complete at least 15 hours of continuing education. Now, in my opinion, that's actually a pretty low bar.

Speaker 1: 4:49

Isn't it?

Speaker 2: 4:50

Right, and what I have found has really helped me keep my skills fresh is by committing to a once-monthly blog post on some technical topic related to divorce, because what it does is it forces me to stretch myself and actually do some research. A really great example is that I had an incredibly long article which is not meant to be read start to finish, on retirement accounts and divorce, and it caused me to say, well, actually, how does this work? Because I certainly, in my working time as a CDFA, have not seen absolutely every type of retirement account, so it forced me to research and to go ask other experts and to really form a more solid understanding. So, yes, I'll do the 15 hours as required, but I do find that you really do need to stretch yourself. And I just want to circle back to having that dual designation, having that CDFA plus CFP. Being a CFP, a certified financial planner professional definitely helps me be more fit for the client post-divorce, no question, but it also helps me be more fit than the average CDFA during the divorce.

Speaker 1: 5:57

Tell me more about that.

Speaker 2: 5:58

Well, the CDFA training, honestly, is a little surface level. Right, it's a designation that you can complete in about three months if you're a good studier and a good test taker which I am right but it doesn't give you every single tool you need, maybe hiring a certified divorce financial analyst. You also want to consider do they have other relevant designations that are going to help make them a more complete solution versus somebody who just has the CDFA? Maybe they don't have a ton of experience, Maybe they don't have other designations.

Speaker 1: 6:37

Okay, and I know for us it's important to work with a lawyer that's worked with the CDFA as well. I don't know what your experience is with that, but we know what you can do, we know what you can't do. You know what we can do and what we're what we maybe can do but we are not the best at so. You know, we're great in the courtroom, we're great with discovery, we're great with pretrial litigation and we can certainly help with finances, but to bring a financial expert on board is always something that helps our cases and really it's something that helps give peace of mind to our clients. We were talking just before the show is that you actually are working on a case of ours with another attorney, melissa Massoum. She's in mediation today, and so I know that you're on call. Another attorney, melissa Massoum. She's in mediation today, and so I know that you're on call and that's something that you do is. You might not necessarily go to mediations, but you're on call in case some advice is needed. Some guidance is needed.

Speaker 2: 7:35

Absolutely, and it happens often right. One of my goals as a CDFA, on any case, is to get the attorney client team so confident in their understanding of the estate and what will and won't work for the client that they don't need me to be in the room. But it almost always happens that a question will come up that they weren't anticipating, that we couldn't anticipate, and it's just a quick 10-minute, 15-minute phone call. Sometimes it's hey, let me email over the current version of the settlement, lay eyes on it and tell me what you think. And that can be the difference between reaching an agreement that day versus having to come back and mediate a second time.

Speaker 1: 8:16

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 8:16

So one of the most important things that I can do for a client is help them reach an agreement more quickly that they feel confident about, not an agreement they've been forced into, but one that they feel really good about, rather than endless rounds of discovery and mediation.

Speaker 1: 8:31

One of the things that I often say is the uninformed mind says no. So one of the reasons that I encourage folks that are on the other side of our case as opposing parties, that they should get a lawyer, because if they don't know family law then they're more likely to just say no. But if our clients and the other side feel that they have all of the knowledge and foundation set out in front of them, then they have the confidence to then say yes to a mediation and potentially avoid court, which is less expensive, less stressful. It's just an overall better solution. So we've set the foundation for this conversation. Tell me some of the things that a CDFA can help attorneys family law attorneys and help family law clients with.

Speaker 2: 9:22

Yeah Well, let's start with the beginning in mind. Family law clients with yeah Well, let's start with the beginning in mind. Depending on the practice and depending on the attorney, sometimes making that spreadsheet, the inventory of assets and liabilities, that is literally their worst nightmare. So I can certainly take that off of somebody's plate. Oftentimes, though, where I'm coming in on a case, it's going to be with, maybe, valuation and also helping untangle maybe some more complicated assets.

Speaker 2: 9:49

So, for example, let's say that we have, you know, a husband, wife, wife has stayed home, maybe raised kids. Husband's a highly compensated executive, say, at an oil and gas company. This is Houston, katy, after all, we have a lot of folks in oil and gas, and oil and gas often means complex executive compensation schemes with maybe restricted stock or non-qualified stock options or, you know, unvested stock or pension plans. We don't see those every day, and they can be very tricky to value. What is this thing worth, especially pensions that don't have some sort of lump sum payout. It's just the stream of future payments, right, and unless the parties are willing to just divide those future payments straight down the middle, you're going to have to put a value on it in order to put it on the spreadsheet in order to put it in one person's column.

Speaker 1: 10:45

Absolutely, and just not to cut you off, but this is a perfect example of something that family law attorneys not the best at, not the experts in, and so this is where we call upon folks that know how to do this to help us out.

Speaker 2: 10:59

Absolutely, and you know, and it's just the fact that this is not what you guys are trained for. You all are legal experts, Right? And I'm glad that this is coming up, because sometimes clients will make the mistake of asking their CDFA a legal question, and so I am forever reminding clients that I am not an attorney. I cannot weigh in on legal process or what their legal rights are, and that's where it gets really tricky working in a process where there is so much entanglement. So, yeah, things like valuing pensions, things like untangling, you know, complicated stock schemes, the other thing that comes up and it actually comes up in this case that is hopefully settling this week is okay, we have all of this employer stock and it's held in all of these different plans.

Speaker 2: 11:52

But I'm the one in the room saying but is it transferable? Can this actually move from husband's name to wife's name? Because one of the big pitfalls of dealing with a highly complicated estate is you may reach an agreement that you literally can't implement, and that's not good for the client, certainly, and it's certainly not good for you guys because you'll have to go back and fix it later. So having a CDFA on board when there's complexity can save time, money, frustration, consternation, and it can help you get to an agreement. Maybe, we hope, a little faster.

Speaker 1: 12:27

And one of the reasons just to remind clients or prospective clients it's one of the reasons that we encourage them to do discovery written discovery is to get those documents so that way we and you can analyze them and get that legalese that we can dig our hands into to see if the solutions are even able to be implemented. And I know that we had a case where there was a couple of annuities and you might not even recall this, but there was a couple of annuities involved and I remember you dug into the details and we decided which of those annuities was going to be in our client's best interest to take. And so one spouse got one, one got the other and it just worked out better that she was going to receive the annuity that paid out a little bit earlier. She was a stay-at-home parent and could have used that cash flow a little bit earlier than her husband who was working and had an established career. So little things like that, that on paper might not show through, but once you get into the nitty gritty it matters to our clients.

Speaker 1: 13:35

One of the things you mentioned was an inventory and appraisement and folks might not be familiar with what that is. Can you explain? I mean it's very important foundation of trying to reach a settlement or a court. Tell us a little bit about what an inventory and appraisement is.

Speaker 2: 13:51

Yeah, well, in every case, you're trying to reach an agreement about if you have kiddos, the kid stuff right, and that you can't do on a spreadsheet.

Speaker 2: 13:58

But you also have to decide what do you own as a couple, what do you owe as a couple in terms of debts and what is outside of the community and you might want to talk a little bit about Texas being a community property state but we have to have a list of everything that you own, everything that you owe, and we have to know what it's worth.

Speaker 2: 14:21

And that's what we call the inventory and appraisement. Most people just use a simple Excel spreadsheet. I use a highly complex and detailed Excel spreadsheet, which I know is famous in your office, and the reason I have that level of detail and complexity is because when you guys are drafting the decree, I want you to have at your fingertips every piece of information that you'll need, and I also find that when I'm helping folks make decisions, the more details I have, the better my work product is. So an inventory and appraisement sounds fancy. All it is is a list of everything you own, everything you owe and what is it worth, and this is the working document that you and the clients will use during settlement negotiations.

Speaker 1: 15:02

Absolutely, and in those negotiations it's really a living, breathing document at that point, in that we'll have columns for husband, wife or, if it's the same-sex couple, each of the partners and we'll move things into the different columns. We'll have percentages at the bottom and it will help us determine whether it's a just and fair division of assets. So we talked a little bit about dividing assets as something that a CDFA can help with. Tell me a little bit more about valuing assets and what that looks like.

Speaker 2: 15:31

Yeah, Great question. Most of the time we're just looking at a statement, right? So if it's a bank account, if it's an investing account, if it's an IRA, if it's a 401k, you just look at the statement to see what is it worth. That's very straightforward. You don't really need a CDFA for that. But let's say that you have something that isn't as straightforward pensions and we talked about this a little while ago. Pensions can sometimes you value that, right? You're not going to put $2,000 on the spreadsheet, so in that case, a CDFA will come in and we'll do a calculation. It's going to sound so fancy. Present value of future cash flows. This is the calculation we do. It actually could be done on a spreadsheet with I think it's five inputs To me.

Speaker 2: 16:32

Doing a present value of future cash flows calculation is incredibly intuitive. I did probably thousands of them in my finance class, but to most people that's not an intuitive calculation, right? Then you might have something like a set of maybe non-qualified stock options. Well, what the heck are those worth? What even is a non-qualified stock option? So that's where you might come in and have a CDFA, do a set of calculations to figure out what those might be worth. The only other category that we typically see are things like restricted stock options Sorry, restricted stock units, All of these acronyms and all of these restricted things. But what you might have is a statement that shows a certain value, and some of those restricted stock units are vested, meaning they're owned by the person, and some might be unvested, meaning they're not yet owned by the person and they could be forfeited for whatever reason. And that's when you want to have a CDFA come in and look at that statement and say this is what's actually subject to division, and this is what we can't divide because we don't even own it yet.

Speaker 1: 17:44

And the RSUs, the restricted stock units, are something that, especially being in a big city, being in a big oil and gas city, as we see, a lot of restricted stock units are something that oil and gas companies you often see that as part of a retirement plan. So it's always helpful to have a financial expert to help us out in valuing those and, like you said, just telling us whether that's something that's even divisible right now. And those are conversations that we have usually behind the scenes or before a mediation and determining what our first offer is going to be. Absolutely so that's valuation. Tell me a little bit more. We talked a little bit about division, but what specifically are some things that you will provide advice on or the conversations that you have with clients?

Speaker 2: 18:32

With respect to division. So the very first thing I want to know from the client is talk to me about what your first couple years after the divorce need to look like. And this is a huge blind spot for so many clients, because they get tunnel vision. All they can think about is let's just get this case settled. I don't care, I just need a settlement. And I see clients sometimes fail to take into account what comes next and they end up with a settlement that doesn't serve them. So the very first conversation I'm having is around goals, right. And then I need to understand their ability to earn income and support themselves post-divorce so that I can help them craft an offer that will set them up for success post-divorce.

Speaker 2: 19:15

So one horror story and this was not a case from your firm, but we had a client who was awarded nothing but retirement assets and she wasn't old enough to start tapping into those retirement assets without a penalty and one of her primary post-divorce goals was to buy a house. Okay, so now we have assets we can't touch, we don't have any cash, and she really, really wants to buy this house and we had to bend ourselves into pretzels to make it happen and we did, but had we had that goal in mind when crafting the settlement agreement, things might have gone differently. So that's always number one what do you want your life to look like after the divorce? The next thing I'm going to be looking at is what asset is most advantageous for each party. So a good example would be we have a high earning spouse and a lower earning spouse, right, and the lower earning spouse is going to need access to assets for at least a couple of years just to get themselves back on their feet.

Speaker 2: 20:17

In that case, I'm looking to take anything that's not sitting in a retirement account, anything that doesn't have strings attached, and sending it to the lower earning spouse, and I want anything sitting in a retirement account that's currently not being taxed and won't be taxed for a long time. I want that to go to the higher earning spouse. This is a win-win Lower earning spouse gets access to liquid assets. Higher earning spouse gets to keep a hold of the things that are currently tax deferred, which gives them a better tax picture.

Speaker 1: 20:47

And that's something that we run into often, especially out in Haiti, where our primary offices you will have a primary breadwinner. You will often have a parent that stays at home, and that parent that has stayed at home for sometimes five, 10, 15 years will need a little bit of runway in order to get their career off the ground, and so having that liquidity is something that allows them the runway in order to get some training, go back to college and get their professional career off the ground. So tell us a little bit about you know. One thing that we run into is that when you have, say, a retirement account, you have a brokerage account, is that there are different tax consequences, and this is something that we'll often look to you for. I know that you don't provide tax advice, but we certainly have conversations about it. Tell us about the tax consequences of some of these and how that can play an incredibly important role.

Speaker 2: 21:57

Yeah, absolutely so. I'll kind of go back to my example from a few moments ago, when we talked about the woman whose divorce settlements gave her only retirement assets, but she really wanted to buy a house right.

Speaker 2: 22:10

I mean the tax consequences of drawing out of a retirement account before you're age 59 and a half, and that's the tax law says. If you tap it before 59 and a half, you're going to pay taxes, ordinary income, just like you would with a regular distribution, but you're going to pay another 10% penalty. I mean, and depending on your tax bracket, that could be a 30% 40% bite that comes out of that asset right out of the gate. So there are some pretty meaningful impacts and consequences if you don't plan this thing carefully. So one of the things we can do is we can look at the post-tax value of any given asset in the hands of one spouse versus another. That can sometimes give us insight into what's going to be most valuable.

Speaker 1: 22:56

And what you mean there is you have a higher earning spouse, they might be in a higher tax bracket, and you have a spouse that maybe isn't even earning any income, they're going to be a lower tax bracket. So more money is going to Uncle Sam if a certain asset is given and pays out to a higher earner, correct?

Speaker 2: 23:16

And you know what? One thing we don't run into as much is with, say, brokerage accounts only because capital gains taxation, the 15% bracket is very wide. I want to say the 15% bracket starts at $80,000 in ordinary income and ends at about $450,000. So oftentimes we see both spouses are sitting inside the same capital gains tax bracket.

Speaker 1: 23:40

Okay.

Speaker 2: 23:41

It's really retirement accounts. Okay, retirement accounts, when you take money out, are taxed like ordinary income.

Speaker 1: 23:47

In those brackets you could have one spouse that's in the I don't know 12% bracket and another spouse in the 24% bracket, and now we have a huge delta right between those two, and one of the things that I've encountered is you'll have an opposing counsel or maybe somebody that's not knowledgeable about the way this tax impacting works, and you'll have on a spreadsheet the inventory. You'll have $12,000 that's sitting in a savings account, yep, and then you'll have $12,000 that's sitting in a 401k, a traditional 401k that has not been taxed yet, and on a spreadsheet you have 12,000 and 12,000. One's going to husband, one's going to wife, and it looks like a 50-50 split, but in reality it's not Not the same. Tell me a little bit about why not.

Speaker 2: 24:38

Okay. So if you have $12,000 sitting in a bank account and you take that $12,000 out and you spend it, you get to spend all $12,000 and you have zero taxes due. Now I am going to, because Baird would be angry if I didn't, but I am going to point out if you have interest income on any of that, you're going to pay taxes on the interest. Okay, but that's pay as you go. Okay, but $12,000 in a bank is $12,000. $12,000 in a 401k is not $12,000. It's $12,000 before you pay taxes. So let's say, just to keep the math simple, you're in the 10% tax bracket, right? I don't think there is a 10% tax bracket, but I'm going to make it up because I don't want to do math in my head on a Monday, right? So if you have to pay 10% taxes on that money before you can access it, your $12,000 is not going to be $12,000, right, it's going to be, you know, something less than 10 after you've paid your taxes. So it's not the same.

Speaker 1: 25:37

And, in addition, if you pull that money before your retirement age, you're going to have an additional penalty.

Speaker 2: 25:42

You absolutely will.

Speaker 1: 25:43

So the present value of that money is going to be less, and that is so incredibly important, for what we do is when we can show our clients a spreadsheet that has the true present value of the money, especially when you have folks that are going to need to access the money right now. Absolutely, we need to have those values, and that's certainly where you and CDFAs can be very helpful. So let's talk about planning and long-term outcomes. What does your role look like there?

Speaker 2: 26:13

Yeah, absolutely. And I'll open this part of the discussion with the caveat that not everybody needs long-term outcome projection. Some people just need that here and now expertise, a little bit of help around goal setting, a little bit of help around formulating an offer, right. So a lot of times, my work stops there. Every once in a while there will be a client who cannot say yes to any offer, no matter what it is, and it's because they have not answered the question of am I going to be okay? So if you can just if you and the audience can put themselves in the shoes of someone who's maybe been a stay-at-home parent for 20 years. They don't have job skills right now. They have maybe a $4 million estate, and I know that seems like a lot of money, but when you take $4 million and you turn it into two and you're 50 years old and you don't know if you're going to be able to go back to work, that's a lot of question marks, right?

Speaker 2: 27:05

So one of the things that we can do is we can go through a financial planning process with the client, and then the question is always well, what do you assume about the inputs? And what I assume about the inputs is whatever offer is on the table. So we'll say to the client these are the goals you've said. You said you would like to not have to go back to work. If you don't have to, you'd like to be able to provide this amount of income for yourself every year. You believe you're going to live to about this age. That's always a key assumption. Longevity, because planning for retirement to 100 versus planning for retirement to 85 are two different animals. And these are the resources that we believe you'll have available to you.

Speaker 2: 27:46

And what we do is we drop that into some financial planning software. We use MoneyGuide Pro. It's not magical. It's underpinned by the same technology that underpins all financial planning software and it allows us to answer that question of based on the resources I have and the goals that I've set are important to me, do I have a reasonable probability of reaching those goals? And if the answer is yes, oftentimes the client will be able to then walk into mediation and say yes to an agreement. If the answer is no, it gives us the opportunity to start managing some expectations and saying what do we need to adjust about your post-divorce goals so that you can say yes? Because you know this, oftentimes, the settlement will be what the settlement will be. There's no amount of financial planning that is going to cause someone to say, oh, I would love to give you 55% of our family estate, right?

Speaker 1: 28:37

Well, and it's so incredibly important to set the foundation for our clients and the settlement might be what settlement's going to be, but there's a big difference between them walking in and feeling confident that they're going to know that they're going to be okay for the next year, three years, five years, however long, maybe until retirement, and that really helps us out so that we can do our jobs. So how do you get your clients to look towards the future? How do you get them future-oriented?

Speaker 2: 29:09

Yeah, it really goes back to that goal setting that I talked about at the beginning. So I said I can come in and I can do the inventory and appraisement, but also I'm going to be thinking about goal setting and this is where I think having a good understanding of what we call behavioral finance it's the study of how people behave with money. It's really, really helpful, because the reason I like to do goal setting is because when I see the client start to have tunnel vision, when I see them getting very wrapped up in the minutiae of here and now, things that in the long run aren't important, I have two options. I can say that's really not important. I don't know why you're focusing on this. This is not helping you, I'll tell you. Most of the time that doesn't work.

Speaker 2: 29:54

What is much more useful is to say you know, back when we started this process, you told me that one of your key goals was to make sure that you could co-parent successfully because you have young kids together, and I just want to make sure that we're still keeping that goal front and center right. When we first started this work together, one of the things you told me that was really important to you is that you be able to have a year to reorient yourself and get back to school and get some job training, and I want to make sure that we're focusing on that and not this other thing, that and not this other thing. So, always going back to what are the goals we talked about and is what we're doing right now serving those goals, and that really, really helps a client stay future oriented, because you know this, you've done many of these cases. Getting tunnel vision is the easiest thing. It's so easy to focus on that last thing that my soon to be ex did. That just made me so mad and it's a distraction.

Speaker 1: 30:48

Yeah, okay, sarah. So who needs a CDFA or who should consider hiring one?

Speaker 2: 30:54

Yeah, that's the million dollar question, right. And I'll start by saying not everyone needs one, right? Not every single case needs the extra expertise, and I'm just going to refer down to a few notes I had here. So here's when you need to really think about hiring someone is you know? Do I understand what's in my estate? Do I understand the assets? Do I understand the debts?

Speaker 2: 31:13

If you can't say yes to that, maybe think about a CDFA. The next one would be do I understand the settlement offer? Right? Maybe you understand the estate but the settlement offer doesn't make sense. Then you need to start thinking about hiring an expert. Do I understand the potential tax consequences of the settlement offer that's on the table? And then, and this is really key, do I feel confident, right? Do I feel confident that I'm making a good choice? If you don't feel confident, if you don't understand what's happening, if there's any doubt in your mind and your attorney isn't able to satisfy those doubts, consulting with a CDFA makes a ton of sense, and maybe it is just a one-hour consultation, or maybe you do end up hiring, but it really comes down to do I feel confident about the financial elements of the case?

Speaker 1: 31:57

And I would certainly say, whenever there is a more complex estate that does involve restricted stock units ESOP, sep, iras, iras, more complex 401k planning it's always helpful to have a financial expert, and particularly somebody with experience in divorce cases. There's a lot of CFPs out there and having somebody that has some expertise in divorce and how we can guide people through that process and knows how to work with a divorce attorney, knows a bit about our process, is always really helpful.

Speaker 2: 32:32

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 32:33

So tell me I'm curious to hear your answer to this when should they hire? When should somebody hire a CDFA?

Speaker 2: 32:41

In my opinion, the day after they hire the divorce attorney, Okay.

Speaker 2: 32:44

But that doesn't always happen right and the fact of the matter is is that you can bring a CDFA into your case at the beginning, in the middle or even after your case has settled, because sometimes there you go in for a consultation with is honest with you and tells you, yes, you really do need the help or no, you don't. Hopefully your attorney has a good relationship with a CDFA that they can just pick up the phone and call, and this has happened before. I've had you, I've had attorneys in your practice call me and say I just have a question. I've had you. I've had attorneys in your practice call me and say I just have a question. And you know, if there's a good relationship there, I'm always happy to spend 15 minutes answering a question If for no other reason than I really care about people getting good outcomes.

Speaker 1: 33:39

And I know there have been numerous cases where we've referred somebody to you and you know, Sarah, talk to them, see if they need your help, and that you've come back, or they've come back to us and it's like it's just not right. We don't, you don't feel right having them spend the money on something that they don't need, which is always very much appreciated and one of the reasons that we like working with you. So tell me, what does your process look like if somebody is going to hire you?

Speaker 2: 34:07

Yeah, absolutely so. One of the things that I think is important is that they have an opportunity to sit with me and answer as many questions as I can answer within an hour without having to worry that I'm going to charge them for that privilege, right? I know from personal experience divorce is a very resource-intensive process with respect to time and with respect to money. So I offer every single potential client a free one-hour consultation, and the point of that consultation is for me to get a good understanding of the elements of their case. Give them an opportunity to get to know me, ask all the questions they need to ask about me and how I work. At the end of that, I'll let them know whether or not I think I'm a candidate.

Speaker 2: 34:46

If I'm not, I'll say so. If I think I'm a good candidate, I'll make sure they have a good understanding of what it's likely to cost, what their obligations as a client would be and what it would take to start the process. And then after that, I essentially back away and allow them to take the time they need to decide if they want to hire me. And you know what? It might take 24 hours, it might take a few weeks. In some cases it's taken two years. So I always say my door will be open to you whenever you decide you're ready or when you decide you feel you need me.

Speaker 1: 35:22

And I know, once you are hired, we've had cases where you've come to mediation. You've been available for mediation and that's really driven by the attorney and by the client about how much they're going to be utilizing you. And if they don't need you for something then you know that's okay, but you're going to be available.

Speaker 2: 35:45

I mean, the mantra is I do not want you to spend money that you do not need to spend, right? So you call me when you need me. I'll do the scope of work that we've agreed to, and I'm not going to encourage you to insert me where I am not needed. I am not the center of this process. I am a supporting role in this process.

Speaker 1: 36:10

Well, Sarah, as we wrap up, tell us how can folks find you?

Speaker 2: 36:12

How can they learn more about your services online? Well, I'm super easy to find you. Just go to sarahcuddycom S-A-R-A-H-C-U-D-D-Ycom, or you can Google search Sarah Cuddy, and there's a lot of information there. And for folks who are still trying to get themselves oriented and educated, I do have a blog. It's called Graceful Exits and that is my divorce blog, and there's dozens and dozens of posts on all sorts of divorce topics. For folks who are interested in a consultation, there's a contact form on my website. They can fill that out. We usually get back to you in about 24 hours, so you could also just call me. I do pick up my phone.

Speaker 1: 36:51

Okay, and how do they do that?

Speaker 2: 36:53

Yeah, so that the number there is 713-296-8005. And there's also email. It's scuddy at rwbearcom. All of those details are on the website. I'm also on Facebook and LinkedIn if you want to stalk me for a little bit and kind of see what I'm all about. But it's generally pretty easy to get a hold of me.

Speaker 1: 37:14

Oh great. Well, thanks for joining us. You know it's always. Having you on our cases is just a wonderful value added service for our clients and gives them the peace of mind to know that, like you said that the main question people want to know is am I going to be okay? Like you said, the main question people want to know is am I going to be okay? And having a team of experts is just incredibly valuable, and we always enjoy working with you, and our clients do as well. So thanks.

Speaker 2: 37:46

So the audience know that I am a financial advisor employed by Robert W Baird Company. I do not give tax or legal advice and Baird does not give tax or legal advice. All right.

Speaker 1: 37:59

Very good If anybody is looking for legal advice on a family law case, particularly in the greater Houston area. You can see more about Hunt Law Firm at familylawyerkdcom. We have a wealth of information in our blog. You can see past episodes of our podcast there. We have explainer videos and more. That's familylawyerkdcom, and until next time, this is the Texas Family Lawyer Podcast. We'll see you next time.