Alex Hunt: 0:09

Welcome back to the Texas Family Lawyer Podcast. My name is Alex Hunt. With Hunt Law Firm we serve the greater Houston area with offices in Katy, sugar Land, cypress and League City. You can find more information on our firm at familylawyerkatiecom. But today we are visiting with Melissa Massoum, an attorney at Hunt Law Firm, and we're going to follow up on a conversation that we had in a past episode about what to expect at mediation by talking a little bit about what you need to do to prepare for your Texas family law or divorce mediation. So welcome, melissa, hi.

Melissa Masoom: 0:46

Alex, great to be back.

Alex Hunt: 0:48

All right, so let's do a quick recap. Tell us, if folks didn't see our past episode, what is mediation?

Melissa Masoom: 0:54

So mediation just to simplify it a little bit is just a formal process outside of court where there's a mediator and the parties get to be in a room with their attorneys and they get to settle a case outside of court with the mediator going back and forth. So that's usually how it works.

Alex Hunt: 1:17

Well, we talked about this in the past episode. But when do you need to go to mediation episode? But when do you need to go to mediation? And one tool that might help folks that are watching this on video is we have a child custody flowchart that lists out the entire child custody process and a typical case, from start to finish. You can find that on our website, familylawyerkdcom. You can click on resources and see the flowchart. But tell me when during a case would you need to go to mediation?

Melissa Masoom: 1:47

Well, alex, you can go to mediation as soon as you file a case. So if you want to go and get some temporary agreements in place because you need something right away or immediate relief, you can do it right away. Or you can do it at the end of the case, after you prepare and you and your attorney have had time to collect documents and all that. So you can do it at the end of the case, after you prepare and you and your attorney have had time to collect documents and all that. So you can really go right away if you need to.

Alex Hunt: 2:11

And preparation is key to mediation. One of the hallmarks of our firm is that we are over-prepared. When we go to mediation, we go with everything that we need. We don't want to waste time where the meter's running, the mediator's there, the clients are paying the mediator, you're paying the lawyer. We want to have all of our ducks in a row beforehand. So let's talk a little bit about what the conversation with your attorney before mediation should look like.

Melissa Masoom: 2:38

So you're right, I, like all the other attorneys at our firm, like to be overprepared. So usually I like to meet with my client a couple of times before and I usually give them a list of things we'll need for mediation. Because what we like to do at our law firm is make sure the mediator is overprepared with our case. So we usually give them documents such as bank statements and anything else that they might need to help settle the case, as well as exactly what my client is is wanting. So I always tell my clients you know, get all that ready, get any documents, depending on the case.

Melissa Masoom: 3:19

You know I'll give that list is very, very important because it helps me prepare and it helps me get everything I need to the mediator. I also let them know if there's anything you want the mediator to look at that you think would be helpful, please send that over so I can send that over and then I usually put together, you know, the first offer because I think you know that saves a lot of time. The first offer because I think you know that saves a lot of time. Like you said, it's a lot more efficient if, walking in, the mediator already knows what we're looking for kind of at some of the backstory and it just makes the process go a lot quicker.

Alex Hunt: 3:54

Yeah, you don't want to waste time in mediation putting together that first offer with the mediator there. So the conversation that I typically have with my clients is dependent on whether we're going to mediation for temporary orders or for final orders and of divorce, the final decree of divorce. So let's start with temporary orders. Some folks might not be familiar with what temporary orders are. Tell me a little bit about what are temporary orders in a family law case.

Melissa Masoom: 4:24

So, alex, in Texas we don't have anything called legal separation. So a lot of people come into our office asking you know, can we legally separate? You can't. So for a divorce case, temporary orders. And for a custody case, temporary orders are temporary orders, exactly like it sounds. Temporary orders, exactly like it sounds, and it deals with just some agreements or things that need to be put in place right away, as the rest of the case is your. The attorneys are preparing with the rest of the case. So, basically, things like who's going to pay what bills, child support, temporary child support, temporary spousal support, and who lives where that's a big one and how often you get to see your children or the other parent gets to see their children All of that can be taken care of in the temporary orders.

Alex Hunt: 5:18

Temporary orders. I have this conversation with my clients. It's not the time to decide who gets what family pictures. It's not the time to decide who gets the stuff in the garage.

Alex Hunt: 5:31

Temporary orders really is all about maintaining the status quo and making sure that everything is going to be okay while the court settles the final orders. And one example that I often give is particularly in a divorce. And one example that I often give is particularly in a divorce. There's an expectation that a husband and a wife or partners will be able to come together and reach agreements on some important things like who's paying what bills and who's taking care of the kids and when, who's taking the kids to the doctors, who's making medical decisions.

Alex Hunt: 6:03

But when the marriage relationship breaks down, then often those what should be seemingly simple decisions become very difficult. It becomes like the Wild West. There's no rules, and so having the court step in, put those temporary orders in place helps give order, helps maintain that status quo. But you don't necessarily need to go to court and have the judge drop the hammer and decide what's going to happen in your case. You can reach an agreement and then present that to the court and get the judge to approve, and that's the value, that's the beauty of temporary orders mediation, so that conversation should be a lot should be focused on what you need, what the court may do and what your attorney recommends. Tell me a little bit about what that conversation looks like with your clients.

Melissa Masoom: 6:59

So with my clients, I usually I usually like to draw it out because I'm a visual person of what they're actually looking for.

Melissa Masoom: 7:07

So their wishlist is what I call it, right, what they absolutely need, and then some of what they want or it'd be great if they got right.

Melissa Masoom: 7:16

So we list that out and then from there we try and brainstorm what their first offer might look like, right, and then we talk about you know the fact that you know a couple of hours later they might not be where their first offer is and we need to talk about well, what's the absolute minimum that you will walk out of there with, like, what would you want to walk out of there with? And for a lot of people you know, for instance, it's a bottom line support number, right? Or it's well, I'm not leaving the house, so everything else isn't important, but I want to stay in the house and that gives me an idea of how to negotiate in the mediation. And I also let the mediator know that, so that they're prepared and that they know that this person has a bottom line. Usually we don't share that with the other side, right? So, because mediation is confidential, but it does give both the mediator and their attorney a good place to start, and you know it's good to have that. So that's usually how that conversation needs to go.

Alex Hunt: 8:30

I think having that conversation about the minimum that a client is willing to accept. So your initial offer should be, you know, probably something similar to your best day in court. Don't walk into a mediation with the expectation that they're just going to say we accept your first offer. That's not going to happen, more often than not. I mean, think about how many times you've been in mediation and we give our first offer and the other side huffs and puffs and says I'm going to walk out, and then we get an offer back and then our client is put into a completely different mindset because it's a completely bogus offer.

Alex Hunt: 9:00

But what comes after that is the important part where we're trying to come together and the conversation about the minimum that you're willing to accept in a mediation before you decide that's it, melissa, let's go to court is so important to conversation before the mediation.

Alex Hunt: 9:18

You do it during. You're having it during a time where there's a lot of emotion, there's a lot of turmoil, people get in their heads, they're not in the right mindset and when you sign on the dotted line in a mediation, you sign a mediated settlement agreement, it's a done deal, it's irrevocable. So you really need to set your guardrails before you get to mediation about what's the least that you'll accept, and that's a conversation that we have. We always send our clients at Hunt Law Firm. We send our clients a letter confirming when mediation is setting up that meeting. If they need another meeting, we'll set another meeting, but we're not just going to set mediation and then show up and try to figure it out then. Right right, so let's talk about temporary orders mediation. What are some of the documents that you might need from a client, or what do we need to produce in order to have a successful mediation?

Melissa Masoom: 10:18

So if it's a divorce, a really important document that our clients hear about right after they sign up with us is the financial information statement we call it the FIS and that is basically a list of all their monthly expenses, right? So in a typical month, how much are they paying in rent mortgage, how much are they spending on kids' activities, how much are they spending on bills? And it's a great way to figure out. Well, you know, this is how much I might need at the end, right? So if they're asking for child support and a spousal support, that's a good place to start and it helps us kind of figure out what the needs are.

Melissa Masoom: 11:00

And this is a very, very important document because courts require it as well if you are to go to court. So it helps you almost prepare for court, and it's one of the last thing we have to do if we do have to go to court. And I always tell my clients this is such an important document and I know you're, you know, scared about how you're going to do financially in this divorce. But don't inflate your needs here, because if you are not truthful and if you can't back up what your needs are with either documents or whatever, then you know it's not going to be a great look for you in court. So if you have bank statements, if you have anything to back it up, I also ask for those. So you know, if the other side's like, well, that's not true, we have the documents to show them in mediation.

Alex Hunt: 11:50

So our clients, before we go to mediation, really as soon as they sign up they're getting a binder and our paralegals are going over what their homework is. And you know, we've got our homework too. We've got things to draft for the court. But the homework that our clients do, particularly completing that financial information statement, that might not be something that folks have really thought about and just the process of writing down your income, your expenses, can be really eye-opening, but it's an important piece. Before we go to mediation, tell me about what kind of statements that we might need for temporary orders mediation.

Melissa Masoom: 12:31

Usually, alex, we ask for the most recent bank statements and the most recent pay stubs. It doesn't matter if you're not going to be the one paying child support. We usually need the most recent pay stubs, if you have them, and those bank statements are really important. And even if the other side has access to those bank statements and that's something we get all the time well, it's a joint account we still need them for both our purposes for knowing what's in the bank account, but also it's just what we need to exchange. So it gives us a good idea of you know how much money is coming in, et cetera.

Alex Hunt: 13:09

So that's the financial component of a temporary order orders mediation and in a lot of cases, if there's no kids involved, you might not need temporary orders. You might be able to come to an agreement just between the parties on how the finances will work. But then there's also the kid component. If you have children, what are some of the things that need to be decided at a temporary orders mediation? And then what should people be thinking about beforehand? What should they be preparing so they're ready to make those decisions in mediation?

Melissa Masoom: 13:40

So, with kids, besides the financial aspect of the kids, there's possession and access and there's conservatorship. So we have our clients. So, if you think of it as two different boxes, right, we have our clients. Make sure they know what decisions they want to make with the other parent. There is the important decisions, like we call it heads, meds and eds, and that's psychological, psychiatric care, invasive medical procedures and educational decisions. Do they want to share those decisions with the other side or do they want to make them exclusively? And then we make them think well, what does possession and access look like? Right, so, do you want for you or the other side to have the regular, standard possession order? Do you want something different? Do you want something that works with your work schedule?

Melissa Masoom: 14:30

This is the time when you know, as we're preparing for mediation, we have to think about it all the time, because it's really important to kind of know exactly. You know how that's going to look, and it's a good time for us to also advise them. Well, this is what the court would do. Of course, we're going to ask for this, but just so you know. You know this is a little bit outside of what the court would give you and it helps manage their expectations.

Melissa Masoom: 14:56

And so you know, walking into mediation, I'm asking for something that if I don't get I might not get in court, but I'm asking for it here. So that's that. Those are the things we talk about with with kids. But also we need to start looking at child support calculations and we need to make sure that we know if either our client is paying child support or the other side is paying child support, what that looks like, and sometimes we don't know those numbers. But if we do know those numbers, there's actually a calculator online we use and we make sure we're prepared to you know, tell the mediator what we want in that aspect.

Alex Hunt: 15:32

So from there, let's say, the parties get together, they reach an agreement in temporary orders. They will get a mediated settlement agreement From there. Not quite done yet with temporary orders, one of the parties, one of the party's attorneys, needs to draft up the temporary orders, circulate it for revisions. The lawyers will talk about some of the terms, work on the language, give it to the parties, will sign off, it'll get provided to the court. The court, 99% of the time, is going to approve it because it's the agreement of the parties and then sign it and then you'll have your temporary orders. That will maintain the status quo in your case.

Alex Hunt: 16:13

So again, if you're on video watching this, then we'll put up our divorce process worksheet. We're going to skip ahead. Then, past the temporary orders, you'll have an opportunity to do discovery, request for production of documents, interrogatories, depositions. You'll exchange inventories and appraisements. All of these documents are important. So that way you're ready for a final orders mediation. So let's again talk about final orders, mediation, finances, figuring out a final financial settlement. What documents do we need to have prepared before a final mediation?

Melissa Masoom: 16:55

So the inventory and appraisement that you mentioned is a big one. So that's a document that actually lists out every single asset, bank account, everything the parties have in a divorce in order to figure out, well, who gets what right. So that's a big one. And that's when we're preparing for mediation we talk about well, what do you want right, in final orders, because you don't really talk about that for temporary orders, right. So the inventory and appraisement after the discovery process, after figuring out what the other side has, is very important. Also, all the bank statements, all of that and any other documents that would help that final mediation settle is important, that final mediation settle, which is important.

Alex Hunt: 17:47

And the inventory and appraisement really is the document that during the mediation, the attorneys and the client clients at least at our firm, the clients in the driver's seat we're providing the advice and guidance. But the inventory is a document that we're going to continue to go back to because it's a spreadsheet and on that spreadsheet we're able to create columns of who's getting what. We're able to look at percentages of what percentage is each party getting. The best part about an inventory and appraisement that you get before a final mediation is that it's sworn to its accuracy by both parties under the penalty of perjury. So they're notarizing it and they're signing it, and so you should be able to feel pretty well assured that it contains everything.

Alex Hunt: 18:32

But if you feel like your spouse is leaving something out, you will have that run up until before the final mediation and the divorce trial, if that's where you go to do all the discovery that you need. So you can subpoena bank records if you feel like there's things that are missing. We have connections at our firm with private investigators that can try to find bank accounts. We have forensic accountants that are on call that we can use to try to locate the entire financial picture. So our clients have that for mediation. But that's the key is knowing the entire financial picture. So you know what you're dividing and there's no there's no secrets, anything else for the finances at a final mediation that folks need to think about ahead of time.

Melissa Masoom: 19:25

Well, I mean, who gets to keep what bank account is important. If they have a joint account, who's going to keep that? Who's going to get off of that? Those are all important things. And then again back to the I guess the bigger assets also like the house. If they're going to keep the house, who's going to pay the mortgage if someone's going to refinance? Those are all important things to look about at final. Those are not things we talked about, probably at the temporary orders mediation. So the financial aspect of the final divorce mediation includes all of that. It also includes if spousal support is going to be an issue, right? So if spousal support is on the table, then you know what does that look like? How long is that going to last? How much is that going to be? That's all included in a divorce final location.

Alex Hunt: 20:23

And then, of course, if it's a divorce or if it's a child custody case, then the kid issues are going to be front and center, and that includes conservatorship. You know where that child's primary residence is going to be. Who's going to be making those decisions that you mentioned before medical, psychological, psychiatric, educational decisions, possession and access which is a fancy way of saying who has the kids and when and child support. The good thing about a final mediation, though, is that hopefully you've had some time under temporary orders or just during the pendency of the case to try some things out until you know what works and doesn't work. What does that conversation with the client look like ahead of time, and what are some things out until you know what works and doesn't work? What does that conversation with the client look like ahead of time, and what are some things that people should know going into making those decisions in final mediation?

Melissa Masoom: 21:14

Right.

Melissa Masoom: 21:15

So one of the things I have to tell clients is, you know, during temporary orders, mediation, or when the temporary orders are put in place, is, like you said, this is a great time to figure out what is working, what's not working. Uh, let me know what's not working, uh, or what is working because that'll help us prepare for that final uh, because, once again, once it's final, it's final, right, um, and you can go back and change it. But, uh, kids stuff can be changed, unlike property, uh things, but that is going to require a whole nother filing in court and all of that. So this is a good time to kind of think of well, you know, this wasn't working, or I'd really like, for instance, an exchange location of the kids to be changed, because that's not really working for my schedule, like I thought it would. Or I need you know this to be added to that possession and access, whatever, whatever they want.

Melissa Masoom: 22:10

This is that's the conversation I like to have with my clients. Is you know what? What happened during temporary orders? Do we want to keep that? And it's great when everything worked out and we just pretty much turn the temporary orders into final. But sometimes there's definitely a little a few adjustments that need to be made.

Alex Hunt: 22:27

And I'm thinking back to a case that we had a couple of years ago where there was a nesting arrangement, which is something that's fairly new, which is where the parties have, say, a house and then they have an apartment, but the parties are the ones that move back and forth, not the kids. The kids get to stay in the house and in this particular case we tried that on temporary orders and nesting is particularly difficult to make work and in this case they realized over those months that they were trying this out Right, this is just not going to work long term, and so they're able to come to terms with that and reach an agreement on something else. We also have cases where the parties for temporary orders will try things like 50-50 and they'll do week on, week off, or they'll try what we call 2-2-3, which is where you do a Monday and Tuesday with mom and you do a Wednesday and Thursday with dad and then you switch off on the weekends, and it's a lot of moving around and parties will realize this just doesn't work for us. So having an opportunity to try some of those things out, see what works, what doesn't work, is one of the benefits of having strong temporary orders and then and then trying it again at final orders orders.

Alex Hunt: 23:43

Well, I know that we litigate cases. We represent our clients zealously in mediation, but we also you and I and another attorney in our firm, margaret Tucker, also mediate cases. What is your mindset? Tell me a little bit about how you go into these cases as the mediator, not as one of the attorneys for the parties.

Melissa Masoom: 24:07

Right. So as a mediator I usually one I really like when the attorneys are like a law firm and they prepare me for what I'm about to go into. So any kind of memos and documents really help me. But I always go in hoping that we can know we can come to a compromise. But the most important thing in Texas, especially with kids stuff, is the best interest of the child. So I go in making sure that that's at the forefront of each room, that we think about whatever emotions and whatever is happening. You know we're focused on the kids. So that's a big part of, you know, my mediations.

Melissa Masoom: 24:54

I try and make them realize that, look, that's what the court's going to look at if you were to go to court, and this is, you know, a final agreement. And you, you know you need to think about your kids first, um, because that's the most important thing. I also make sure, um, that they understand because we, because I litigate and I've, you know, been in court so much, um, in front of all these judges, that they know, if they don't compromise and they don't come to an agreement, what that court hearing or trial is going to look like. So I make sure that both sides know look, this is what you'll be facing, including, you know, besides costs, which is a big thing, right, you're going to have to show the judge certain things, and I'm hearing both rooms and I don't know if you're going to get that. So I try and manage their expectations as well. To make them come to the middle.

Alex Hunt: 25:56

Definitely Well, melissa. Thanks so much for joining me again to talk about mediation. We have a lot of resources on our website, familylawyerkatiecom. Click on the Resources tab at the topcom. Click on the resources tab at the top. You can also click on the blog tab at the top. We have a lot of blogs about mediation, what you need to prepare, what to expect when you go to mediation. Also, look at our past episode. That is what to expect in your Texas family law or divorce mediation. If you have any questions, feel free to call our office 832-315-5494. And we'll see you next time. Thank you.